View Full Version : Changes to allowances?
Have Just come across this Thread (http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=entanet&Number=3526519&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=0&fpart=). Have yet to receive comfirmation by email to the new peak/off peak times.
I got to agree with this sentiment from TBB;
I'm trying to find out if off-peak is now unlimited, like the ADSL2+ products. Also will we be throttled down to 128k for going over peak bandwidth, just like ADSL2+ products? I think it will be a positive move if everything is the same, such as over usage charges being abolished.
"bringing the ADSL products in line with ADSL2+ products" is one thing, but if the allowances stay the same, all they are doing is making ADSL even worse than it already is in comparision to ADSL2+.
If that's true then it's going to make a lot of folk reconsider Enta - and by implication adsl24. my exchange won't provide adsl2+ until early 2010. I like my weekend off-peak allowance and use it for an occasional day-time download which might otherwise put me over my peak allowance.
the-bruce
18/12/2008, 16:37
If that's true then it's going to make a lot of folk reconsider Enta - and by implication adsl24. my exchange won't provide adsl2+ until early 2010. I like my weekend off-peak allowance and use it for an occasional day-time download which might otherwise put me over my peak allowance.
I thought with Adsl2+ you have up to 3 times the speed hence shorter off-peak ...
What about us still on 8 meg packages lol
As much as i luv this place, if this comes into force, I will be considering a move.
Brucey
xxxxx
I thought with Adsl2+ you have up to 3 times the speed hence shorter off-peak ...
What about us still on 8 meg packages lol
As much as i luv this place, if this comes into force, I will be considering a move.
Brucey
xxxxx
Exactly Brucey, those of us left on the old packages will be penalised by Enta. Unfortunately with a monthly contract I suppose they're within their rights to alter terms in such a timescale.
the-bruce
18/12/2008, 16:43
Exactly Brucey, those of us left on the old packages will be penalised by Enta. Unfortunately with a monthly contract I suppose they're within their rights to alter terms in such a timescale.
Aye m8, but to me its called moving the goal posts ....
Brucey
xxxxx
Tony Hoyle
18/12/2008, 16:50
That would be the point I'd expect. A high user can do one of two things.. 1. leave, which frees up bandwidth so enta can take on more accounts without increasing costs, or 2. opt for a higher usage allowance, thus increasing the amount coming in. enta win either way..
Yes but Enta specifically said that this kind of thing would not happen because they have a solid business model that fully accounts for high usage. They claimed that they would upgrade the centrals in line with demand according to a model. Here, they are basically admitting their business model was either flawed, or more likely, they want more profit that the original model provided.
the-bruce
18/12/2008, 16:58
Yes but Enta specifically said that this kind of thing would not happen because they have a solid business model that fully accounts for high usage. They claimed that they would upgrade the centrals in line with demand according to a model. Here, they are basically admitting their business model was either flawed, or more likely, they want more profit that the original model provided.
Tbh enta are struggling atm with the centrals at off-peak time, maybe this is there way of sorting the problem ;)
Brucey
xxxxx
If the Peak allowance is not increased from my 30gig to 50gig, then I will have to seriously consider a new ISP. I never use much Off Peak allowance and do not wish to spend my time watching how close my Peak is.:(
Tbh enta are struggling atm with the centrals at off-peak time, maybe this is there way of sorting the problem ;)
Brucey
xxxxx
Actually, I don't think the centrals are too bad. I rarely see my connection drop below 3000k, and that's only for the first hour or so of off-peak use.
But that's besides the point. The new centrals are delayed, so current levels are unusually high. Once they come on-stream, levels will return to normal. What they've done here though, is used that technical hold-up as an excuse to increase profitability. It's a p. crappy thing to do imo.
Tony Hoyle
18/12/2008, 17:08
Yes but Enta specifically said that this kind of thing would not happen because they have a solid business model that fully accounts for high usage. They claimed that they would upgrade the centrals in line with demand according to a model. Here, they are basically admitting their business model was either flawed, or more likely, they want more profit that the original model provided.
True, but that was before BT put cost of centrals up 25% to try to drive ISPs onto 21cn (then delayed IPStream connect until September... left hand, meet right hand...). I doubt their business plan covered something as insane as that happening.
As a result enta have massive amounts of 21cn capacity they can't use because there's only about a dozen people on enabled exchanges (which is dead money - those pipes can't be cheap), and full capacity on the centrals, which now cost more as well.
They want to get their ARPU up... Whether it's out of greed or survival I have no idea.
I would probably be ok with the midnight off-peak time, scheduling will sort that out. It's the On-Peak weekends that will really wind me up.
True, but that was before BT put cost of centrals up 25% to try to drive ISPs onto 21cn (then delayed IPStream connect until September... left hand, meet right hand...). I doubt their business plan covered something as insane as that happening.
Yes, but there are plans to dump all of the current ADSL bandwidth onto the 21cn backbone in the near future anyway. When that happens ADSL customers, when compared to ADSL2+, will be left with;
-more expensive connnections
-more restrictive bandwidth limits
-slower speed
-AND the same off-peaks times
yet essentially we'll be on the same network as, and therefore cost Enta the same as, ADSL2+ customers.
Tony Hoyle
18/12/2008, 17:21
I would probably be ok with the midnight off-peak time, scheduling will sort that out. It's the On-Peak weekends that will really wind me up.
Have to admit that's a bit much, unless they increase the allowances to account for it.
A 30gig/mo user has gone from 0.4gb/hour peak to 0.26gb/hour peak... or to have the same package it should be 45gig/mo. (assuming my maths is right, anyway).
Tony Hoyle
18/12/2008, 17:24
I
Yes, but there are plans to dump all of the current ADSL bandwidth onto the 21cn backbone in the near future anyway.
IPStream connect has been pushed back to September.. and may be delayed still further (it was supposed to be launched with 21cn this year (July!), then February next year, so it keeps moving).
So it really depends on how you define 'near future'.
See for example http://www.trefor.net/?tag=ip-stream-connect
I'm sure when it finally arrives they'll restructure their packages (presumably make them all the same & you just get ADSL1 or 2 depending on what exchange you're on).
cootcee64
18/12/2008, 17:51
seriously hope entanet reconsider or adsl24 will loose customers including myself.
I wonder if adsl24 have received the email, and are planning something similar to UKFSN?
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=entanet&Number=3526758&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=0
Yes, if this goes ahead then i`m off to another isp...looking now in fact:(
tboorman
18/12/2008, 19:04
As there is no official post here about this from ADSL24, I'm guessing they were not given advance notice of this. If that's the case, I think the way Entanet are treating their resellers is disgraceful.
Yes, if this goes ahead then i`m off to another isp...looking now in fact:(
Me too, another isp gone downhill, from what i've been reading they wont be many customers left so maybe save them money on the new centrals :(
This was the whole reason i was not going to mover over to ADSL2+
MAC Time me thinks...
Anyone know of a good ISP that wont be going down this route in the future?
CM
A VERY UNHAPPY MONKEY :(
Transmit This
18/12/2008, 19:33
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff121/inoutbox/Newchangestopeak.jpg
That's a good representation of the changes :cool:
I am one of those 'lite' users and the move to adsl2+ would have been to my advantage.
Costwise I would have got a larger limit for the same price.
But, there seems to be some controversy about the implementation of adsl2+?
Does the thing work yet:s
They've announced (http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=entanet&Number=3526836&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=) that allowances won't be changed. What a total rip-off!
tboorman
18/12/2008, 19:57
I wonder if adsl24 have received the email, and are planning something similar to UKFSN?
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=entanet&Number=3526758&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=0
If I was in their position, I'd certainly be looking at alternative products to resell.
The way Enta have gone about this is just unreal.
Do O2 or Sky ADSL Max products have download limits?
I guess there are 2 'camps'
For me I don't actually need huge off-peak
So....
Now -- Home3, 3GB/month = 16.15£
New -- 2Plus10, 10GB/month = 14.67£
At the moment I use the weekend to get my wifes iMac updates:o
But I do appreciate the fact that many others need the capacity for Linux ISO's etc.
Who else can adsl24 go to?
What really annoys me is the fact that BT seem to be messing about with 21CN etc so I might end up worse off anyway.
300GB off peak data allowance but in the very best case scenario (transferring at a constant 7150 kb/s during off peak hours) we will only be able to achieve 168GB. Trading standards anyone?
abuelito
18/12/2008, 20:30
I wonder if adsl24 have received the email, and are planning something similar to UKFSN?]
They say they're hoping to produce a "viable solution" on Monday. I'll certainly be having a look at what they come up with. Does anyone know anything about UKFSN - I've never come across them? I'm reluctant to leave ADSL24 - occasional blips apart, they're a great ISP.
lobster1
18/12/2008, 20:40
should silence the whingers about the all weekend slowdowns
Laser157
18/12/2008, 20:44
From Enta's T&C:
4.2 We may have to change the terms and conditions of the Agreement. Where this is necessary we will publish details of all changes on http://www.enta.net/ before they take effect.
4.3 We will endeavour to let you know about any change referred to in Clause 4.2 at least one month before it happens. However, if we need to make changes, as soon as possible, for regulatory or legal reasons, we may be unable to meet that timescale. In those circumstances, we will let you know about any changes as soon as we can.
An email sent out on 19th Dec for a change to be implemented on 2 Jan would not comply with their own T&C. Hardly a change based on a need to comply with any regulation or legal obligation!
Yeah the fact that it took the resellers to complain and point out they are breaking their own T&Cs for them to back down and change the date to the 19th Jan says it all. What has happened to Enta?
InSaNeCaT
18/12/2008, 20:49
Ack, Phfft.
I can't believe this is happening. I just converted two mates to ADSL24 and now this happens.
I am still loving ADSL24 after a few months since joining and would defo not have been leaving until reading about this. It's a real shame that enta are being such plonkers. I am now heading back to the review sites looking for a new provider but I hate to be considering asking ADSL24 for a MAC as it's not their fault :-(
tbh, even with these changes, I probably still won't hit my limit on the Home30 package as I barely go into double figures total (peak+offpeak) most months, but out of principle for what entanet are doing I will find it difficult to justify remaining their customer.
The annoying thing is that there must be loads of people like me who are paying for current allowance way over what they use (due the next package down (Home3) having such a small limit). And being aware of sharing pipes with other people I avoid downloading stuff I don't really need/want so I'm not contrubuting to the shrinking of overall bandwidth during off-peak for other users. But now they are doing this when it kicks in (if I'm still with ADSL24/enta) I think I might just leave my PC on every night to download the same linux ISOs over and over again.
i.e. this is just a stupid, greed inspired move, that ultimately will only cost them more in the long run. To quote Ren, "You stoopid Eediots!"
300GB off peak data allowance but in the very best case scenario (transferring at a constant 7150 kb/s during off peak hours) we will only be able to achieve 168GB. Trading standards anyone?
No, 2.9Gig an hour is possible at 6800kb/s.
6800kb/s = 850kB/s = 0.83 MB/s
= 49.8MB/minute
= 2988MB/hr
So, at 8hrs x 30 days, that's 690GB ish.
tboorman
18/12/2008, 20:50
Does anyone know anything about UKFSN - I've never come across them?
Yes, they're another well respected Entanet reseller, and also give first class support.
tboorman
18/12/2008, 20:52
They have FUPs.
There's no FUP on Sky Broadband Max any longer - http://www.sky.com/portal/site/skycom/skyproducts/broadband/pricesandoptions/max.
No, 2.9Gig an hour is possible at 6800kb/s.
6800kb/s = 850kB/s = 0.83 MB/s
= 49.8MB/minute
= 2988MB/hr
So, at 8hrs x 30 days, that's 690GB ish.
So it is. I should check other people's calculations before I pinch them :rolleyes:
sjrooney
18/12/2008, 21:26
It is an even worse deal for those of us on Office packages, we're losing an extra 2 hours each weekday from our off-peak :(
I think I'll probably be off, which is a shame because this is (was) a good place to be.
Regards,
Steve
As there is no official post here about this from ADSL24, I'm guessing they were not given advance notice of this. If that's the case, I think the way Entanet are treating their resellers is disgraceful.
Yes, ive been in bed ill all day, and surfaced to see this. Not impressed in the slightest, will speak to James tomorrow about this.
InSaNeCaT
18/12/2008, 21:47
They say they're hoping to produce a "viable solution" on Monday. I'll certainly be having a look at what they come up with. Does anyone know anything about UKFSN - I've never come across them? I'm reluctant to leave ADSL24 - occasional blips apart, they're a great ISP.
Hope they manage to sort out something, I wanna stay an ADSL24 customer.
Will defo hold fire on MAC request til Monday and see what transpires by then...
*fingers crossed*
the-bruce
18/12/2008, 22:13
Yes, ive been in bed ill all day, and surfaced to see this. Not impressed in the slightest, will speak to James tomorrow about this.
Give them hell m8
Brucey
xxxxx
Laser157
18/12/2008, 22:37
I can understand people leaving, but I'm still haunted by Tiscali. Even though things 'aint what they used to be' here I'll probably hang on for now. Something to bear in mind in making comparisons is the free web hosting. When I looked at o2 it seemed they offered nothing inclusive in their packages.
JamesL - hope you feel better soon. Pluto going AWOL and now this is not what you need when you've got flu.
abuelito
18/12/2008, 22:59
JamesL - hope you feel better soon. Pluto going AWOL and now this is not what you need when you've got flu.
Good wishes from me too, JamesL. You're doubtless feeling groggy and here come Enta, dropping a load of the proverbial on your doorstep. Do hope you can sort out something acceptable. I guess that the great majority of us are happy with ADSL24 and want to stay with you.
austinsom
18/12/2008, 23:07
I'm shocked - as a new customer I have been hit with the speed issue, and made some calls to tech support and now running along virtually as fast as the cables will allow!
This is a bit of a kick in the teeth - I run four computers off my router so am going to be crippled by this!
I am pleased with the service received so far and I hope something can be sorted out ASAP to stop this disaster being implemented. In my frustartion I typed the following e-mail to enta, the question is, should I send it? :rolleyes:
---------
Dear Sir,
As a new customer, having just found out about this I have to say I find it both shocking and disgraceful that enta.net is behaving in this fashion, not only to its existing customers but also to its resellers. What do you expect them to do when they get complaints, which they will, when you have only given them 24 hours notice?
Also, you may or may not be aware that the proposed change fails to provide adequate notice as per your terms and conditions - I think trading standards might be interested in this one, and I have a feeling that some of your soon to be ex-customers will be passing the detials on.
If an enta.net representative were to visit the may forums discussing this topic I think they would find that there is very little positive comment on this move, and the vast majority, myself included, will be leaving to find a new ISP as soon as our current billing cycle is expired.
Obviously pressing the self destruct button seemed like a good idea at the time the meeting was held, but I think the damage is done, and even a retraction will be seen as too little too late.
Enta.net has destroyed its own credibility. Such a shame, I heard nothing but good things before I joined, now all I hear is bad news.
So, so long, and don't forget to switch the lights off when the last of you leave the office.
A soon to be ex-customer.
---------
If anyone else wants to send it, feel free to pass around as a template - maybe if they get enough they re-think what they're doing, although it could be BTW causing this problem?
Anyway, Merry Christmas :)
Laser157
18/12/2008, 23:39
Not sure why James' explanation is there:
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=entanet&Number=3527109&page=0&view=&sb=&o=
But not here?
Tony Hoyle
18/12/2008, 23:41
Meh.. he's been ill, give him a break :p
Laser157
19/12/2008, 00:08
JamesL has been ill, but maybe James has too?
one of the main reasons i picked adsl24 is for its generous off peak allowance. looks like from january ill be moving, 60gb just isnt enough and i cant run my pc 24hrs so a midnight to 8am off peak is completely useless to me. looks like ukonline or swift internet. both offer large bandwith allowances. i know its not adsl24s fault so will be sad to go.
IPStream connect has been pushed back to September.. and may be delayed still further (it was supposed to be launched with 21cn this year (July!), then February next year, so it keeps moving).
So it really depends on how you define 'near future'.
See for example http://www.trefor.net/?tag=ip-stream-connect
I'm sure when it finally arrives they'll restructure their packages (presumably make them all the same & you just get ADSL1 or 2 depending on what exchange you're on).
IPstream connect is coming in February as Entanet use WBC not WBMC which is what the delay is on.
I will post a copy of the message I posted:
From what I can figure out, Enta have gone down this route primarily due to BT's increase by around 30% to their bandwidth costs.
Enta have got a 3 year old product set that is no longer sustainable in today's market based on how much bandwidth is being used from what was being used this time a few years ago - and they are making a huge loss due to their original (IMO poor?) design of packages (e.g. offering a huge off-peak allowance).
So now, due with the 30% increase in costs from BT, the only thing they can do is put everyones price up by £5-10 or take some other action to try and prevent the need to put the prices up immediately. This looks like their way of doing it so that they don't have to raise prices in an already price competitive market whilst still offering one of the best IPstream solutions currently available. Sky have already announced that all their packages will go up by an extra £5/month and more ISPs will have to follow suit shortly.
Whilst I am not in full agreement of what will be happening, I understand the fundamental reasons why they are having to do so at this time.
Question (for my own research) - would you rather:
- Have the current off-peak times and pay an extra £5-10
or
- Have new off-peak times and keep the same price
There simply is no way to sustain the current product set at the prices Enta are charging hence why I'm not surprised at this change.
But, I urge any ADSL24 customer not to panic.
I can't go in to any details, but we do have multiple avenues ourselves as to which way we can continue to get the best price point/performance/allowance for our customer base - be that with Enta or not - as at the end of the day if we can provide a more suitable or better service over a different network then this is always a good option to have available.
We're not just sitting back and letting Enta get on with things either... so expect an announcement as soon as we do the sums and detemine which of the paths we have available are viable for both our respected customers which is every one of you, unlike what Enta seem to think...
the-bruce
19/12/2008, 08:30
I would pay extra if i could keep the current off-peak times
Brucey
xxxxx
tboorman
19/12/2008, 08:35
Sky's prices are only increasing by £5 per month if you don't have Sky Talk.
I don't want to pay more than I do currently. I'd like to see those on the 8 Mb products given the same allowances as those on the ADSL2+ ones, and at least some of the weekend made off-peak.
Laser157
19/12/2008, 08:54
Better solution:
Keep existing off peak times
Cut off-peak allowances by say 50%, keeping existing tarriffs
Allow an option for people to pay more to keep existing allowances
I've given my opinion on TBB but here's an expanded version.....
I'd prefer to keep the price as it is and live with the changes in off-peak but I'd like to be given the same option to top-up as ADSL2+ customers have.
I'm a 30G customer who rarely exceeds 3G, peak+off-peak, but I have the 30G package for peace of mind so I don't have to constantly keep a check on my usage.
However, my usage is likely to increase over the coming months and so some months, but only very occasionally, I might get near to the 30G. The peak/off- peak changes might make that more likely.
Hence the desire for the ADSL2+ top-up option.
sneezageeza
19/12/2008, 09:40
What the bruce said +2
James - thanks for the update. I don't want to leave either, and I'm happy to stay put until things become clearer. I value the the hosting package and I've had a better service, faster and more stable connection with adsl24 than I had with f2s/pipex/tiscali. I'm not a big downloader so I'm only on the 3Gb peak package, but I suspect that the proposed Enta changes would push me over that limit. Is there any chance of raising the 3Gb limit for the cheapest package but keeping the cost the same?
JamesL - get better soon, buddy, you're wanted and missed :)
I feel OFCOM (who on a personal note dont look after customer interests) have no small part of the blame in this.
Allowing BTw to increase prices far beyond reasonable levels supposedly to force people onto their new product is totally unacceptable.
For the majority of people we would love to have the new system but we cant it doesnt exist in our areas and wont for a considerably long time if ever.The trials in the areas that are enabled are far from convincing.BTw should only be able to apply price changes to systems that are up and running and where dual services exist.
IMO OFCOM should step in and not allow this to happen.
Enta , have been at the forefront of this new technology and should not be suffering from the agreement they made with BTw to trial the system and should be recompensed for the investment they have made in a system that BTw themselves are not keeping their part of the bargain, in fact it is in BTw financial interest to be as slow as possible enabling new exchanges with these price rises to existing working services.....this cannot be right !!!
in answer to :"Question (for my own research) - would you rather:"
- Have the current off-peak times and pay an extra £5-10
or
- Have new off-peak times and keep the same price
As an office45 user whatever happens my package has disappeared you can have much of my off peak as it stands now but i dont think from what i see of the central loadings this will make any difference to the enta price model . There are only a couple of hours a day that the pipes are overloaded this will not change and i have already been with ISP's who have tried this shifting hours about/calling off peak unlimited it doesnt work contention will overwhelm any system at the start of off peak the ALT imo was the best way to handle this until recently.
I would gladly pay the extra money if the quality of service was to go back to what it was 6 months ago. BUT there are no guarantee's that it can .
Personally i think that there have to be more options in the peak allowance packages either by top up's(as 21cn pricing gives) or swapping some of the now off peak allowance to peak to recompense for the swathing cuts in off peak hours that office package users are faced with.
I am not going to apply for Mac just yet though and will give you the time to try and sort out packages for this mess that Enta have left you in...they must have been considering this for months yet spring this on you as resellers with no more notice than we customers are getting.I would like to remain loyal to you as an ISP as none of these problems are of your making best of luck in your attempts to come up with a working package model.As has been said it wont be the high users that will be the only ones leaving which will exacerbate the problems .
ORANGEutang
19/12/2008, 10:31
I guess there are 2 'camps'
For me I don't actually need huge off-peak
So....
Now -- Home3, 3GB/month = 16.15£
New -- 2Plus10, 10GB/month = 14.67£
At the moment I use the weekend to get my wifes iMac updates:o
But I do appreciate the fact that many others need the capacity for Linux ISO's etc.
Who else can adsl24 go to?
What really annoys me is the fact that BT seem to be messing about with 21CN etc so I might end up worse off anyway.
Did you know BT has doubled allowance from 5Gb to 10Gb?
...and if you take the phone deal with it, I believe they 'only' count 'real' downloads and uploads' and not Internet streaming like Youtube iPlayer etc.
Somewhere in their website there is a page where it 'clearly' explains charges and they also only charge 58p pre Gb for over usage and only after 2 months of overusage and do not penilise their customer.
It looks like they are getting better, But how is the BT broadband service in the whole?
Is it worth it? If it is, ADSL24 has better move on it as BT has a better deal, especially for low users (the more penalised here - I believe - I am one.
Sorry if there are any MistAKS :o]
ORANGEutang
19/12/2008, 10:36
300GB off peak data allowance but in the very best case scenario (transferring at a constant 7150 kb/s during off peak hours) we will only be able to achieve 168GB. Trading standards anyone?
Remember that ADSL24 off-peak times are unreal too!
from 10 pm? oops it is now 12am - worse!
The majority of ISPs peak times are 8am to 6pm and not 10pm!
and for families and low users like me it is easy to use around 3 to 5 (includes streaming!) - just over the max on HOME 3! and why is it at 3Gb and the next package is TEN TIMES MORE?
I believe it is to force you to that package and for what I have seen and notice, most light users are around 4Gb!
I hope it is not a trick to get £. 5 from you and the rest!
So the 3Gb package has no sense at all !
Im on the Office 45 product so would this affect the hours as well? I sincerely hope not as that would be very detrimental. As I understand it atm current office offpeak is 8pm-8am and weekends.
If they are staying the same then I recommend everyone on Home products to seriously consider changing to Office range instead of moving ISP.
ORANGEutang
19/12/2008, 11:18
Im on the Office 45 product so would this affect the hours as well? I sincerely hope not as that would be very detrimental. As I understand it atm current office offpeak is 8pm-8am and weekends.
If they are staying the same then I recommend everyone on Home products to seriously consider changing to Office range instead of moving ISP.
I am checking it right now.
Unfortunately around here if we are lucky we will get ADSL2+ in May June 2009 and may move to that - possibly.
Yeah that's a good point actually - what are they doing with the Office packages?
tboorman
19/12/2008, 12:09
AFAIK, the off-peak for the office products will be the same as that for the home ones.
I will post a copy of the message I posted:
But, I urge any ADSL24 customer not to panic.
I can't go in to any details, but we do have multiple avenues ourselves as to which way we can continue to get the best price point/performance/allowance for our customer base - be that with Enta or not - as at the end of the day if we can provide a more suitable or better service over a different network then this is always a good option to have available.
We're not just sitting back and letting Enta get on with things either... so expect an announcement as soon as we do the sums and detemine which of the paths we have available are viable for both our respected customers which is every one of you, unlike what Enta seem to think...
I will be more than happy to remain a ADSL24 user if the package and cost meet my requirements.
Cliff:)
IPstream connect is coming in February as Entanet use WBC not WBMC which is what the delay is on.
Seriously? So, in other words, Entanet have to put up with BTs increased prices for a grand total of 1 month.
Tony Hoyle
19/12/2008, 12:39
IPstream connect is coming in February as Entanet use WBC not WBMC which is what the delay is on.
My understanding is that they're separate issues, and nothing is happening until September.. If you're right though it makes enta's move slightly confusing - if they can get IPStream connect working in February then they can dump all the excess traffic onto their 21cn pipes and have no problem with the centrals (indeed, ditch them completely.. which makes me wonder.. why order centrals 7&8 at all?).
Seriously? So, in other words, Entanet have to put up with BTs increased prices for a grand total of 1 month.
My understanding is that they're separate issues, and nothing is happening until September.. If you're right though it makes enta's move slightly confusing - if they can get IPStream connect working in February then they can dump all the excess traffic onto their 21cn pipes and have no problem with the centrals (indeed, ditch them completely.. which makes me wonder.. why order centrals 7&8 at all?).
IPstream connect is a 21cn product, so if your exchange is not enabled then you can't be moved over
and will remain on the current infrastructure.
And there are a fair few of us on exchanges which don't even have install dates for 21cn services,
let alone dates that have slipped by several months.
With my usage these allowance changes will make little difference to me directly, but its not
a good signal from Enta - especially the lack of notice given by Enta to it's resellers.
And this really does put the boot into those customers remaining on normal adslMAX products,
hopefully ADSL24 will be able come up with some viable alternatives as mentioned by James
over at the thinkbroadband thread.
This is not good news. Will be looking for another isp unless this gets sorted.
IPstream connect is a 21cn product, so if your exchange is not enabled then you can't be moved over
and will remain on the current infrastructure.
No, it happens at the BRAS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_Remote_Access_Server) node which is ISP side afaik.
Tony Hoyle
19/12/2008, 13:11
IPstream connect is a 21cn product, so if your exchange is not enabled then you can't be moved over
and will remain on the current infrastructure.
IPStream Connect is the bridge between the new and old networks.. BT take care of the interconnect and the ISP has only to have 21cn infrastructure. That's why they've been telling ISPs not to buy new centrals (indeed why they put the price up to stop them doing it). It's got nothing to do with availability of 21cn at the exchange.
Technical details: http://www.btwholesale.com/pages/static/Products/Internet/BT_IPstream_Connect.html
They still say july 2008 for the launch date..lol.
So, can anyone confirm or deny whether this whole 'BT wholesale price increase' sob story is a red herring or not?
multisync666
19/12/2008, 14:43
I will hang on in here for the present,to see what happens.I'm not sure that i will stay if ENTA carry on this way
So, can anyone confirm or deny whether this whole 'BT wholesale price increase' sob story is a red herring or not?
http://www.execdigital.co.uk/Regulator-proposes-new-BT-wholesale-prices_12467.aspx
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/news/EkkluyAFlkLgqeyZql.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/dec/05/btgroup-bt
Yes, I know that much, but the increases were specifically tailored by BT to drive customers and ISP away from the old ADSL platform and onto the new 21cn networks. Entanet thus claim the price of operating the old Adsl lines has increased. However, in February (or so it seems). Entanet will be able to use Ipstream connect to transfer Adsl lines onto the 21cn networks, thereby bypassing the price increases.
Unless of course, Enta pay BT for the traffic between the dslam and the bras?
sjrooney
19/12/2008, 14:59
http://www.execdigital.co.uk/Regulator-proposes-new-BT-wholesale-prices_12467.aspx
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/news/EkkluyAFlkLgqeyZql.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/dec/05/btgroup-bt
But those stories all relate to line rental for voice calls or am I missing something? I would have expected to see other ISPs either increasing prices and/or cutting allowances if we were looking at big wholesale price increases, but so far I have seen nothing.
Regards,
Steve
This is the correct article;
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/news/EkkVlAykZZhKkRUeqs.html
The move will see newer Wholesale Broadband Connect (WBC) based broadband services, which will be available to 40% of the UK by March 2009 and 60% by March 2010 and can offer speeds of up to 24Mbps via ADSL2+, reduced in rental price 29p per month. BT's 8Mbps IPstream Max and Max Premium products, IPstream Connect Max and Max Premium products will also reduce by 29p per month per line.
Sadly and despite facing aggressive competition from cheaper unbundled (LLU) rivals, BT will be increasing prices on bandwidth for existing IPstream and IPstream Connect ADSL broadband services. Monthly IPstream Connect Bandwidth Charges (CBC) will increase from £92.64 per Megabit/s to £122.64.
ETA; Well, according to that article, the increases apply to ipstream connect products too, so I'll go and crawl back under my rock:(
If they are upping PSTN they will up the tail price as a result.
@Tony
That link doesn't actually provide any technical details on IPStream Connect, unless your a BTWholesale customer -
which being end users we are not.
I haven't read more than the following on IPstream Connect, if you have access to a more technical description of it or additional information on its implementation it would be interesting to read.
IPStream Connect
There isn't much to say about IPStream Connect (the 21CN variant of IPStream). It uses the same backend infrastructure as the WBC products (including the MSIL), and therefore allows ISPs to maintain the newer WBC connections and the older IPStream connections on one product from BT. Aside from this backend change, the same product set will be available as on the existing IPStream lineup. (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/21cn_broadband.php)
The main change being that providers can take over the bandwidth at a 21CN node. The end-user would see no difference in their connection speeds. This product is available to purchase now and requires the ISP to provide their own backhaul from the BRAS in the BT network to their own equipment. (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3710-bt-wholesale-to-delay-21cn-wbmc-broadband-rollout.html)
The above "same backend infrastructure as the WBC products" suggests (to me, maybe not to others :)) it requires 21cn routing at the exchange level, and "requires the ISP to provide their own backhaul from the BRAS in the BT network to their own equipment.". So that they (the ISP) would need to provide their own backhaul [outside of the BT Colossus IP network?] to the bRAS.
@|2eason
no, it happens at the BRAS node which is ISP side afaik.
The information at kitz suggests that there are 11 bRAS's around the country and that the bRAS is actually in the BT ATM network and not at the ISP end - after the ATM cloud and before reaching the BT IP network where it is then routed to the ISP's edge routers.
InSaNeCaT
19/12/2008, 16:07
I defo wouldn't want to pay any more.
A small increase in peak allowance (e.g. from 30 to 40Gig), more substantial decrease in off-peak allowance (e.g. 300 to 200 or even 150Gig), and same price would pacify me for the changes to off-peak times.
But I'm open to other avenues as James suggested. e.g. I'd be happy to stay with ADSL24 using a different supplier for example. My loyality is with with ADSL24 not Entanet so let's hope they come up with Da Best Plan.
Tony Hoyle
19/12/2008, 16:35
The above "same backend infrastructure as the WBC products" suggests (to me, maybe not to others :)) it requires 21cn routing at the exchange level
There would be no point in that - ISPs can already connect customers to 21cn via WBC if there's routing at the exchange level (and the ISP has WBC/WBMC connectivity, which few do at the moment). There's no need for a new product.
Basically, the customers stay on IPStream, the ISPs switch to 21cn (which is what they mean by 'same backend infrastructure as WBC'), and BT handle the switching transparently.
The plan was that all ISPs get onto 21cn, and BT handle the changeover of the exchanges until 2010. Of course with BT involved this didn't work... now you've got ISPs having to run both networks at once, with the 21cn networks horribly underutilised but still costing the same to run. Entanet got hit hardest I'd expect because they were the first to build 21cn infrastructure.
Samknows have a nice picture of how it hangs together..
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/images/21cn/21cn_prodstruct.png (The blue is ipstream and the orange is 21cn)
Also entanet have a nice writeup on the technology (also confirming that this tech won't be available until at least August). http://opinion.enta.net/2008/10/02/warning-bt-acronym-overload/
Tony Hoyle
19/12/2008, 17:20
There's a post over on thinkbroadband that says enta have backed down on the changes.
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=entanet&Number=3527719&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
wierd how with most technology - tvs, pcs, cars, mobile phones etc - over the years gets cheaper, faster, more efficent. yet with broadband you got to pay more and recieve less! i read a quote saying entanets packages are nearly 3 years old. so by now they should be cheaper and offering more bandwith usage at a higher speed not reducing bandwith.
my loyalty is also with adsl24 so if they decided to move to a different supplier who can offer a better deal then id certainly be happy to stay.
Tony Hoyle
19/12/2008, 17:24
Not so long ago (a few years) I was paying £50/mo for 512kb. A little before that I was paying that much for 128kb ISDN *and* paying per-minute connection charges.
The trend is definately towards cheaper.. it's just not a straight line - sometimes things get more expensive temporarily.
AFAIK, the off-peak for the office products will be the same as that for the home ones.
I seriously hope not otherwise there would be no point in having the office range.
dont know how accurate the maths are but this sounds reasonable...
"OK a wee bit more on this...
Tell me what’s wrong with this if the ISP Review news item figures are correct.
Current cost of a central is £92.64 * 622 = £57,622.08 per month so annual cost of 6 centrals = £4,148,789.76
Increase the price to £122.64 per Mbit and the annual cost goes up to £5,492,309.76, making a difference of £1,343,520.
Assuming a customer base of 80,000 that means the additional cost per customer is £1,343,520 / 80,000 = £16.79
So all Enta had to do was bump up the price of a sub by £1.50/month and explain why they reluctantly had to pass on the increase. The extra centrals cost is covered, they probably won’t lose (m)any customers and goodwill is retained.
Or is that all too simple? "
id pay an extra £2 a month. for the lower usage customers who arent bothered with a loss in bandwith then maybe there could be a new cheaper package for them thats inbetween the current ones so they dont have to pay more. then only the higher usage customers would foot the bill. Of course all this isnt entanets fault, its down to BT raising their prices so i dont have any animosity towards them at all, theyre running a business and need to make a profit same as everyone else. just maybe they can find a more sensible solution to the problem.
They've postponed the changes! Wow, I wasn't expecting that. I wonder how long for. Quote from Tony's link:
Dear Partner
Further to our announcement to Partners regarding the planned change to off-peak hours on Entanet’s existing ADSL products from 19th January 2009.
After careful consideration we have taken the decision to defer any change to the current peak/off-peak times until we have discussed the matter further with key Partners in early January 2009. Consequently we will not be issuing a statement to Entanet-billed End User customers today as initially planned.
Please be assured that your customers’ products remain unchanged and that they need not take action in response to the statements and speculation being raised on public forums.
If you hold the billing relationship with your customers and have already informed them of the change as per the email sent on Thursday, we apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused you.
Regards
Partner Communications
Entanet International Ltd
dont think that email was confirmed though....
Tony Hoyle
19/12/2008, 17:41
uksfn and vivaciti confirmed it, so I think it's genuine.
Confirmed by Jason at UKFSN http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=entanet&Number=3527746&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=0
tboorman
19/12/2008, 17:47
There's a post over on thinkbroadband that says enta have backed down on the changes.
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=entanet&Number=3527719&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
Good news for now.
Yep. After a day of discussions with Entanet and their resellers we have all agreed to a more sensible and logical decision regarding the offpeak changes.
This now means the planned changes are not going ahead as planned and whilst Entanet will likely revisit them in early 2009, at least we will then have an input. For now everything will remain the same.
Have a good Christmas if possible... we have done as much as we can for now.
the-bruce
19/12/2008, 18:04
Fantastic news :D
On a downside looks like your gonna have to put up with me cause im staying put ;)
Brucey
xxxxx
Samknows have a nice picture of how it hangs together..
yeah, have seen that image too. ;)
All it shows though is that the "IPstream connect" and the WBC products will both be routed at the exchange to the bRAS which then connects via MSIL (Multi-Service Interconnect Links) to the ISP. It doesn't actually specify what the requirements at the exchange/ISP (i.e installing of updated equipment) end are, Or how it works.
ISPs can already connect customers to 21cn via WBC if there's routing at the exchange level. There's no need for a new product.
The need for the IPstream connect was - to my knowledge - for ISP's to enable existing customers with adslMAX products to remain on those style products, rather than being moved over to adsl2+ WBC products. So for example Home30 could still be supplied to the EU rather than 2Plus 35.
confirming that this tech won't be available until at least August
I think this was for WBMC connections only though, which is where BT handle the backhaul to ISP and the isp in question doesn't have to have their own presence at the Aggregation Points. Which is what James posted about in post #51 (http://adsl24.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=72512&postcount=51)
[snip]
whilst Entanet will likely revisit them in early 2009, at least we will then have an input. For now everything will remain the same.
Both of those points are very good news for us end user's :)
Yep. After a day of discussions with Entanet and their resellers we have all agreed to a more sensible and logical decision regarding the offpeak changes.
This now means the planned changes are not going ahead as planned and whilst Entanet will likely revisit them in early 2009, at least we will then have an input. For now everything will remain the same.
Have a good Christmas if possible... we have done as much as we can for now.
Thanks James, I don't think it’s fair for you guys to get a battering over a decidedly bad decision and communication from Entanet...
I think everyone should appreciate the communication we get from you guys, unlike other larger ISP’s.
Here’s hoping whatever comes from this, it has a positive impact on everyone’s service.
Power to the People :D
Democracy at work?
Keeping fingers crossed for a positive outcome which suits everone.
Tony Hoyle
19/12/2008, 18:56
The need for the IPstream connect was - to my knowledge - for ISP's to enable existing customers with adslMAX products to remain on those style products, rather than being moved over to adsl2+ WBC products. So for example Home30 could still be supplied to the EU rather than 2Plus 35.
They can already do that now... I'm on a 21cn exchange but could go to any number of non-21cn ISPs or get the Home30 from Entanet if I wished.
The problem is the people on exchanges that haven't been upgraded yet - they can't connect to 21cn at all. There's little incentive for ISPs to upgrade to 21cn because they either have to run two networks or lose their IPStream customers (which at this time is the majority).. IPStream connect is supposed to work around that. It was supposed to be released at the same time 21cn came out of testing.. BT dropped the ball completely and now the ISPs are paying the price.
cootcee64
19/12/2008, 19:10
power to the people :)
They can already do that now... I'm on a 21cn exchange but could go to any number of non-21cn ISPs or get the Home30 from Entanet if I wished.
sorry, i'll re-phrase:
for ISP's to enable existing customers with adslMAX products to remain on those style products, rather than being moved over to adsl2+ WBC products. when IPstream is phased out
The problem is the people on exchanges that haven't been upgraded yet - they can't connect to 21cn at all
no disagreement with that statement. ;)
Many thanks James very much appreciated your time and effort on this.
Personally i think OFCOM have to answer for all of this by allowing BTw to raise prices in this way.
We were already over charged from the outset on adslmax so that llu was a more attractive proposition for isp's to take up .
Now they allow them to charge 30% on top of that ????
With the new prices i suspect BTw are more than happy to not push 21cn as fast as they can because they are making a killing on the existing products.
I have always thought OFCOM to be a useless quango and its a position that is not changing.
Tony Hoyle
19/12/2008, 19:31
The problem with the February date is it doesn't tally with what entanet are doing. It would make no sense to order 2 new centrals (with 3 month lead time and 12 month contract) if all the centrals were going to be obsolete by February... far better to tough it out and wait. Similarly with the price/allowance changes - they would become irrelevant once the upgrade was done.
IPStream being phased out will be the same deal as Datastream being phased out was - you'll get moved onto an equivalent package without noticing the difference and over time most users will move to faster ones (not all - you do occasionally hear of users still on a 512kb package who didn't know they could get better because they've never asked). That won't happen until every exchange is upgraded though (and possibly much later.. BT run much more than DSL over their 20cn network).
Agree with the above.. Ofcom should have jumped in and sorted this, but they just sat there and let BT delay 21cn and then take advantage of their monopoly by raising prices during an economic downturn. We'll all suffer from their uselessness.
Good news! Now we can enjoy Christmas!
ORANGEutang
20/12/2008, 10:58
I think there is only a couple of points Enta should fix and 'soon' before they get a Hemorrage of customers migrating away:
1. Streaming should not be counted as allowance and BT is now offering 10Gb with no penalties and only 58p per Gb overused and only after 2 months
2. Peak should be more human and not a 8am tp 10pm (Home) when is generally understood peak as 8am to 6pm (top!) - BT has 8 to 6
BT does not count Streaming (i.e. Youtube, iPlayer, etc. as bandwidth usage) and only 'real' Downloads and uploads count, as it should be and I am talking about fairness here, not the quality of the service, as I do not know how is BT now, but in my situation (a low speed) will not change anything to me to move out other than not being overcharged by Enta !
And that overcharging may make me move away if Enta does not do anything soon.
I hope ADSL24 is 'already' in talks with another provider (even BT directly) and dump Enta!
I would hate to loose ADSL24 quality of service offered by James- nearly always there for you!
PS also the 3Gb to 30Gb difference (10 times!) from Home3 to Home 30 when most 'light' of users probably use about 4Gb is annoying me very much - forcing you to move to 30Gb get the penalties etc. - all this because they add streaming onto the final count!
BT does not count Streaming (i.e. Youtube, iPlayer, etc. as bandwidth usage)
How does that work then? Surely data transfer is data transfer?
paulbacon
20/12/2008, 11:40
Me too, another isp gone downhill, from what i've been reading they wont be many customers left so maybe save them money on the new centrals :(
This will have very little difference to my usage. Before people have knee jerk reactions and want to leave, they have to think "will it effect me?"
So peak usage is now going to be weekend. If i download a large file, i normally do this during the night anyway. Even if i did want to download it at peak times, i have 30GB to play with (i dont even check how much i download and at most ive downloaded 10gb peak)
So what is going to actually change for users? Some may have to download a large file at night time. Hardly the end of the world
Paul I think it was also the principle of the changes and how Enta went about communicating the changes - they are a communications company after all. A massive reduction in off peak hours but nothing given back in return. As the reason given for the changes was to bring existing packages in line with ADSL2+ they could have at least matched ADSL2+ allowances, but no. Let alone all the people that download at the weekend as they work away etc during the week.
paulbacon
20/12/2008, 13:07
Paul I think it was also the principle of the changes and how Enta went about communicating the changes - they are a communications company after all. A massive reduction in off peak hours but nothing given back in return. As the reason given for the changes was to bring existing packages in line with ADSL2+ they could have at least matched ADSL2+ allowances, but no. Let alone all the people that download at the weekend as they work away etc during the week.
Enta and ADSL are far better at communicating on a whole than any other ISP i know. Admittedly they seem to have made mistakes communicating this issue tho.
However we see time and time again ISP's limiting users through limits, throttling, caps whatever you want to call them. Even with these new measures inplace Entanet still have few restrictions placed on users compared to other ISP's. For example my last ISP - Pipex- never even told you their download limit. If you went over it, you got throttled to sub dailup speeds at peak times, but nobody knew what these limits were as they refused to tell you! Even if you go over with Enta they wont throttle you.
And for people who just download at weekend as they work away, you would have to download a hell of alot to reach the limits.
Even with the recent apparent failures in communications , Entanet /ADSL24 are still among the best for transparency in what they provide. The limits are well defined and the stages in enforcing them spelled out clearly and are not draconian .
Personally I have little interest in the Off-peak usage and would happily accept a large cut in my OP allowance in preference to a rise in costs.
At present I use <10Gb of my 30Gb allowance although I expect this to increase as I start using BBC iPlayer etc more.
As my usage is daytime and evenings the 22:00 start of Off-peak with the inevitable drop in performance is fine by me. !
I realise that many others have different views and requirements.
paulbacon
20/12/2008, 18:57
Last 6 months, my total usage (inc both Peak and Off-Peak) has been <25GB p/m, except on 1 occasion it was just over 30GB. I class myself as a heavy downloader aswell
BT does not count Streaming (i.e. Youtube, iPlayer, etc. as bandwidth usage)
AFAIK, BT don't count bandwidth usage when using their BT Vision on demand, but do count youtube etc, unless its changed since i was with them. Also BT sound great in principle until you actually use it, start downloading and they will cap you to 500kb from 6pm-12am, thats why we left them.
Last 6 months, my total usage (inc both Peak and Off-Peak) has been <25GB p/m, except on 1 occasion it was just over 30GB. I class myself as a heavy downloader aswell
Lol you class yourself as a heavy downloader? I regularly hit 200GB a month - what does that class me?!
paulbacon
21/12/2008, 10:12
Lol you class yourself as a heavy downloader? I regularly hit 200GB a month - what does that class me?!
:D
I was classed as a heavy downloader with Pipex, they told me just as much in an email. I download what i want, use Usenet and never limit myself. Always thought i downloaded more than that anyway, but until i joined ADSL24 never had the means to find out
Tony Hoyle
21/12/2008, 11:40
How does that work then? Surely data transfer is data transfer?
You can do analyse the layer 3 protocol to see what's being transferred.. but that's rarely done at the ISP level - it would require powerful hardware and isn't generally cost effective (if it was they'd be doing things like blocking p2p with it already).
BT don't count streaming within their own network ie. BT Vision. They do count everything else.
Several ISPs have something similar - eg. a local server with the latest game patches on it. The BBC have even mentioned distributing iplayer content to ISPs in such a manner, by allowing them to cache locally.
(if it was they'd be doing things like blocking p2p with it already).
An aside: but they shouldn't do that, unless they/you believe that all p2p is against the rules. e.g. do the ISPs disagree with Slingbox?
(BT don't count streaming within their own network ie. BT Vision.
So ORANGEutang's statement is not correct.
Tony Hoyle
21/12/2008, 11:59
An aside: but they shouldn't do that, unless they/you believe that all p2p is against the rules. e.g. do the ISPs disagree with Slingbox?
ISPs tend to dislike p2p as it makes up a large percentage of their bandwidth usage from a small percentage of their users.
If an ISP is running out of capacity they can do 3 things.. 1. upgrade the network, 2. kick off the top 5% or so of users, 3. throttle/block p2p (which, as it comes over random ports and can be encrypted, is rather hard to do effectively).
enta have used the upgrade route so far & hopefully they will continue to do so provided they can come up with a scheme that keeps them in profit. Historically some other ISPs haven't.
Lol you class yourself as a heavy downloader? I regularly hit 200GB a month - what does that class me?!
A downloader of pirate material :D
Sorry had to get that in, couldnt resist :D
Closing this topic now as the changes are no longer happening as per Enta changing their mind for now at least.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.