View Full Version : ADSL2+ connecting at less than ADSL.
Hello all, i'm looking for a little advice.
Since changing from ADSL to ADSL2+ i have been achieving low downstream sync's, and of course slower download speeds.
Here is a typical result pre switch-over:
http://www.speedtest.net/result/806578448.png (http://www.speedtest.net)
and here is one after:
http://www.speedtest.net/result/848303851.png (http://www.speedtest.net)
My normal Downstream Line Attenuation is 39db, and Noise Margin 12db (adsl2+) (6db adsl.)
All websites that i have looked at that indicate achievable download speeds using downstream line attenuation suggest between 8.5 and 10.5mb.
And even the line checker here states 7.5mb for my phone number.
I've tried reconnecting at different times of the day to no avail (not more than twice a day), i'm currently at DownStream Connection Speed 5757 kbps, and have been stuck on the 5000kbps profile for some time.
So, i am looking for some advice of how to improve this.
bogstandard
27/06/2010, 12:04
You're on murphx I take it? Welcome to the club (unfortunately!).
Lots of people are seeing a degradation of service. Some quiet extreme others not. In my case my speed is now roughly a third of what I used to get via ADSL24's previous supplier Enta compared to now with murphx.
Murphx have apparently just been sold to Daisey(?) so I think the conclusion is fairly easy to make.
All this doesnt help resolve these issues however.
You will no doubt be told by ADSL24 support to change your filters (upto £4 a pop for quality one), change your router (upto £170 or more depending on what you want your router to do), re sync on a weekday morning which should improve your sync rate (it will but not by much) or, as I've been told by one or two stooges here, if you dont like the service, migrate!
And that's exactly what Im looking to do as soon as I settle on the new ISP.
Good luck and I hope you find a successful resolution.
Hi,
It would be useful to know the model of your router. Some are better with ADSL2+ than others.
I assume that you are not LLU and are still on the BT network.
Your 12dB vs 6dB SNR Margin could be losing you more than 800 kbps.
How long ago was the change to ADSL2+? If with BT you could still be within the 10 day DLM training period. Don't switch the router on/off or reboot repeatedly as DLM thinks you have a fault and increases the SNR Margin - which could be where the 12dB has come from.
Some more statistics would be useful - CRC, HEC and FEC errors. Can you run RouterStats to see what's happening? What does BT's speedtester tell you - http://speedtester.bt.com/
Also - I see that your ping is now much faster. Maybe the connection is now Fastpath and not Interleaved. This could perhaps result in a higher CRC error rate which is requiring more retransmissions of data and reducing the effective throughput.
ADSL24 ought to be able to change your target SN Margin to 9dB or 6dB and switch Interleave on, or maybe you can even do it yourself via the Control Panel. If you had 6dB previously and all was stable then it should be OK again.
I suppose that you've already removed the bellwire and tried a connection direct to the test socket on the BT socket faceplate? That can gain speed and eliminate house wiring problems.
Useful reading:
RouterStats - http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
kitz - http://www.kitz.co.uk
I'm now with ADSL24/C&W/Murphx LLU after being on ADSL24/Entanet/BT 21CN.
I have 40dB attenuation and currently synch @ 6964 kbps with 9dB SN Margin registering about 5.8 Mbps on speedtest.net - http://tinyurl.com/la8lwp. I don't always trust speedtest.net and double check with http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest.html which gives me slightly slower speeds.
Cheers,
Peter
Hello.
Thank you for your reply, here is some more information:
My Router is a Netgear DG834G v3.
I am indeed the BT network, C&W LLU is not yet available in my area.
I changed to adsl2+ on the 10th May.
I have always preferred non interleaved, and although those results show big differences in ping, i have always achieved 14-20ms (pingtest.net) with Enta and MurphX adsl/adsl2+. My connection always seemed stable, with no packet loss. So a lower SN margin should be fine.
"Some more statistics would be useful - CRC, HEC and FEC errors." I don't know where to fine this information...
http://kureigu.co.uk/misc/bttest.JPG
As for bellwire and test socket. The bell wire has never been connected, and there is only the master phone socket, none linked to it. I have never achieved any different results from using the test socket versus the built in micro filter face plate.
I hope this helps.
Your probably not getting good results due to v3 router having a Texas chipset, I would try a V4 or a 834 GT with the Broadcom chipset and you'd probably get a lot better results ;)
Just to let you know that the acquisition by Daisy Group has nothing to do with Murphx as a company nor will it affect the service being offered. If anything it means Murphx have more financial backing and a lot more potential for the future.
Anyone having an issue we will do our best to resolve this so please get in touch via a ticket if you have not already.
Kureigu, yes as deezel states the DG834G v3 is not that good on ADSL2+ because it has an older chipset. A low SYNC is down to the router/line rather than the ISP you are with, as SYNC speed is between the router and the exchange before it even reaches the ISP.
Hi Kureigu,
I'm a bit surprised that your BT speedtest showed a profile of 5000 with a download speed of 5260. Usually the achieved speed is less that the profile, but I did see this anomaly a couple of times on my line in the past.
The ADSL2+ switchover being 10 May the training should be well finished.
James didn't comment about your 12dB SN Margin. I think it's worth raising a ticket to have it lowered to 9 or 6.
I changed from a Netgear DG834v2 (TI chipset) to a Thomson ST546v6 (Broadcom chipset) and immediately saw about 1Mbps increase in synch speed from about 6 to 7 Mbps.
So I also reckon it's worth your while looking on eBay for either a Netgear or Thomson with the Broadcom chipset and experimenting.
Latterly I have experimented with an ex BT 2Wire BT2700HGV I got on eBay for £20.
It synchs even faster - 7.6 Mps - but I don't like its performance in the evening noise when the error rate increases and browsing performance suffers. So I'm back with the ST546.
To see in more detail what the router's doing, your Netgear can run RouterStats (http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm).
Or you can get to see CRC/FEC/HEC errors directly by logging in to the router via telnet. More details of that here: http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/netgeardg834_interleaving.htm
Good luck,
Peter
Yep, the SNR can be lowered, but its probably been increased as a result of the router, as the v3 is not that stable on ADSL2+
This is the short of what was said when i raise a ticket requesting my SNR to be lowered.
"You seem to be on the BT Based infrastructure for your service at present and unfortunately these sorts of systems are administered automatically on BT\'s automated systems rather than the more manual profile management that\'s used on the C&W LLU infrastructure."
I'll have a little look around on ebay, local papers etc. to see if i can find a cheapish (upto £20) broadcom based adsl2+ router. And post any results.
tboorman
28/06/2010, 19:32
There's a number of reasonably priced DG834GT routers listed on eBay at the moment. Even if it's a Sky branded one, you can always flash it with the DGTeam firmware.
I'm connecting lower since the switch to ADSL2+ as well.
I now have a capped 2meg connection with an SN Margin of 16.5
Of course Adsl24, say nothing to do with them or the switchover I must see a BT engineer at 165.60 GBP.
Well my second-hand DG834N turned up today, and i have good and bad news to report.
First off, the good news: My Downstream sync has increased alittle. Enough infact to hopefully trigger BT's system to up my profile to 5500 instead of 5000 :P I'm now connected at 6275 kbps.
But here is the bad news: My downstream line attenuation is now being reported as being a fair bit higher, 42.5db vs. 39 previously. However my SNR is still sat at 12db (well actually 11.9db)
On a side note my upstream line attenuation has gone up to 22db, i can't recall what it was befor but know it wasn't that high.
I don't know if this is due to more accurate reporting by this router, or if it has just got worse.
I'm going to give it a few days and resync it in the morning (about 6:40 when i get up for work).
Hi,
I think the upstream attenuation is probably OK. Mine is 40.0 down : 23.5 up.
I've seen values others with similarish values whilst Googling.
Just a thought - check on the Modulation or DSL Type . (I forget what Netgear call it).
It should be G.992.5 annex A.
I changed to a different router a couple of weeks ago and instead of connecting as
G.992.5 annex A it reported G.DMT Annex A.
Protocol: G.DMT Annex A
Downstream Rate: 6112 kbps
Upstream Rate: 960 kbps
Next day I rebooted it and it connected correctly:
Protocol: G.DMT2+ Annex A
Downstream Rate: 7601 kbps
Upstream Rate: 1016 kbps
I only spotted that I was connected with the wrong protocol as I was looking at the bitloading data. With ADSL2+ it goes up to 512 tones. But my router was only reporting 256 tones. The RouterStats software can give you all this data.
Or you can get it via a telnet session on the router.
Also, check the version of firmware installed. Upgrading to the latest is probably good practice.
Once the router has settled, then's the time to ask ADSL24 to lower the target SN Margin back to 9 or 6. Having an approved ADSL2+ router all should then work OK
Cheers,
Peter
carpangler1
06/07/2010, 18:24
This is where it all gets complicated unless you're technical or work in IT. Makes sense to me though to most folk it's geek talk.
This brings us to a question of why users have to do all this. Basically either the routers companies are selling are not up to scratch or that broadband providers (Bt or ISP) think that users are technical. Brings us back to the early days of pc's with setting interupts, IRQ's etc (remember those days). Basically users want a service that works without having to go this trouble.
Those days should be behind us and end users just want a service that works, is reliable and stable. Why should we be doing all this in 2010. In 1985 yes. 2010 - No.
2020 - Hopefully we will look back at this and laugh, have systems that we plug in that work :-)
topgazza
06/07/2010, 19:24
Jeez..setting IRQs to avoid conflicts...I do remember that...
@carpangler1 - I completely agree. These things are just too complicated.
Most people wouldn't notice if things aren't as good as they could be. It's good enough. Trouble is, when people do notice then it does get technical. Part of the problem is that things evolve. Routers that were OK a couple of years ago on ADSL1 don't give their best on ADSL2+. And the firmware evolves, just like on the iPhone etc.
And it's not just ADSL. Look at the recentish screwups with Freeview. People only getting Welsh programmes in the Northwest, and some FreeView boxes not working at all any more.
How many people realise that they're not watching in HD on their HD TV via their old FreeView box. But it's probably good enough.
But I wouldn't hold your breath for many improvements by 2020. It'll just be a new set of problems relating to your fibre connection.
Cheers, Peter
carpangler1
07/07/2010, 06:43
Yep, guess when you look at the big picture you are totally right. It's not just broadband that we are have issues with, it's everything we buy. Basically manufactures release products to market before they are fully tested. Going back to the IRQ stuff I guess it's something we have to live with (like it or not) and then learn all about it to get it working. Getting printers to work years ago was a nightmare, now we just plug them in and they work (most of the time). If they don't we get p?ssed off we have to spend an hour getting them to work. Frustrating but that's life in todays fast changing world. 6.5meg instead of 7 meg on our broadband. Do we really notice the lack of the 0.5 meg. I guess not most of the time, but as we should get 7 meg then we aren't happy (Me included, as I'm down to 13 meg instead of the 16 I normally get). But hey, it works and do I notice the difference. A big no, but I still check the router each morning in the hope it goes back up :-). When it does will I notice 90% of the time. No. In 2020 when I get 350meg in instead of 370meg it will be the same story. It was back in the dial up days when my modem connected at 26K instead of 38k (or whatever those slow speeds were).
This isn't a dig at any of the valid comments on here (or other posts) by the way, as most of them are totally valid. Just looking at the picure of how things change and all our expectaions. However, when things do go wrong and are noticeable (which is what counts), suppliers really must act as we pay good money. What is noticeable/an issue to one customer may not be an issue to another user, but that doesn't matter, the supplier should act.
Enjoy
Steve
NattyFido
08/07/2010, 00:04
Yep, guess when you look at the big picture you are totally right. It's not just broadband that we are have issues with, it's everything we buy. Basically manufactures release products to market before they are fully tested. Going back to the IRQ stuff I guess it's something we have to live with (like it or not) and then learn all about it to get it working. Getting printers to work years ago was a nightmare, now we just plug them in and they work (most of the time). If they don't we get p?ssed off we have to spend an hour getting them to work. Frustrating but that's life in todays fast changing world. 6.5meg instead of 7 meg on our broadband. Do we really notice the lack of the 0.5 meg. I guess not most of the time, but as we should get 7 meg then we aren't happy (Me included, as I'm down to 13 meg instead of the 16 I normally get). But hey, it works and do I notice the difference. A big no, but I still check the router each morning in the hope it goes back up :-). When it does will I notice 90% of the time. No. In 2020 when I get 350meg in instead of 370meg it will be the same story. It was back in the dial up days when my modem connected at 26K instead of 38k (or whatever those slow speeds were).
This isn't a dig at any of the valid comments on here (or other posts) by the way, as most of them are totally valid. Just looking at the picure of how things change and all our expectaions. However, when things do go wrong and are noticeable (which is what counts), suppliers really must act as we pay good money. What is noticeable/an issue to one customer may not be an issue to another user, but that doesn't matter, the supplier should act.
Enjoy
Steve
I totally agree, but when your speed was 14000kbps and is now 2000kbps when the only thing that has changed is the supplier from Entanet to MurphX, and the ISP says it's not their fault, what do you do?
Right, its been a few days since my last post and the router has had no involuntary disconnects.
My profile has been raised to 5500kbps, and i have managed to force my SNR to 9.8db via telnet.
Currently i am still unsure of what modulation it is connecting on. Please could i get a little advice on Routerstats/Telnet.
Also i have had no luck at forcing my router not to use the set-up wizard, so i cannot manually change my modulation.
Once again, thanks for your time.
Hi,
Here's one way to check the modulation:
1/ To gain access to the telnet service on the router, you must first enable debug mode on the router by entering the following link in your browser : 192.168.0.1/setup.cgi?todo=debug
This assumes that your router IP has not been changed from the default of 192.168.0.1 of course.
If you're running RouterStats then it has probably already executed the above command.
2/ From a "DOS" command line (started via run > cmd) type:
telnet 192.168.0.1
The Netgear defaults are Username = admin and Password = password
Once logged in type:
adslctl info --stats
This should list basic statistics, including modulation type.
Cheers,
Peter
Hi, this is what i get;
channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 1059 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7311 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: ADSL2+
Channel: Fast
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 8.7 6.2
Attn(dB): 42.5 21.9
Pwr(dBm): 0.0 12.4
Max(Kbps): 8956 1068
Rate (Kbps): 7311 1059
G.dmt framing
I still haven't had any involuntary disconnects, so its about time to ask bt if they can lower my SNR, anyone know how i would go about doing this?
Summary of SNR:
This is the short of what was said when i raise a ticket requesting my SNR to be lowered.
"You seem to be on the BT Based infrastructure for your service at present and unfortunately these sorts of systems are administered automatically on BT\'s automated systems rather than the more manual profile management that\'s used on the C&W LLU infrastructure."
My profile has been raised to 5500kbps, and i have managed to force my SNR to 9.8db via telnet.
Thanks in advance.
Hi,
I think you just raise a ticket asking for ADSL24 to lower the SNR Margin.
Looks like you might already be on a nominal 9, but that depends when you measured it.
Down Up
SNR (dB): 8.7 6.2
In the morning mine is around 9, and between 20h30 and 22h00 every evening (mid-July) drops to around 6.
Cheers,
Peter
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